Hey, Ben, welcome to the site.

1. Conventions are good, but don't overpay for presence and then expect money to rain from the heavens. Use them to actively promote your game. (Chris Loizou is one of the best at this in the UK, Luke Crane in the US -- they both work very hard at it.)

2. From my point of view: multiple sites. But from reading Fred Hicks' numbers for Spirit of the Century I notice that e23 and YourGamesNow trail way behind OBS in terms of PDF sales. For me I've seen roughly equal numbers of PDFs through IPR and OBS each month. IPR has a page on their site about joining them.

3. Yes! You get great feedback from gamers and they also grow a loyalty to your product and spread the word. It also helps give a retailer confidence in your product. EndGame in California does this extremely successfully.

4. A question for the mods and the people taking notes at UK Games Expo's meeting!

5. Yes, reviews on RPGnet, etc. boost sales. Good reviewers also tend to be busy. :-(

I wonder if there is some value in us reviewing each others games? I did a bit of short-reviewing of games I liked on IPR a while back. Because it also genuinely helps the consumer, and I'm one of those too.

Good reviewers: Michael Erb (merb101), Matthew Pooke (Pookie) and Ash (Ash on this site). OBS also have Staff Reviewers that you can send Complimentary Copies to (I got one review that way out of 3 products/attempts).

Hi Ben! Welcome to the site. I didn't mind the late night text but I genuinely thought that together we could help you far more than me alone!

The best way to generate buzz for a game is to be active on forums and to talk about your game, but not in a cynical way - gamers are wily to that and see right through shilling. You have to be genuine, you have to talk about your game_play_, post reports about games you've played and run. Take part in discussions and, when appropriate, mention your game. It's not easy, it's not quick, and it requires dedication and honesty.

Take a look at Malcolm's posts here and at Story Games for good examples - he built up recognition for the game through playtesting reports and design questions, rather than just posting about the game's release. I'm not sure how many reviews it's got, but I bet the initial sales figures are more the result of Malcolm's posting, the promotion for the game and the excitement that shines through from actual play reports than the reviews themselves.

There's always mileage in running games (and then talking about them!) - if you don't run games yourself, why should anyone else? You've got to step up and go the extra mile, show people where the fun is, either in real life (at conventions, in your local FLGS) or online (via your actual play reports about your real life games!). You're lucky in one respect - Fanboy3 is your local gaming store, so you should have a good and receptive starting point there. Plus, Newt runs GoPlay Manchester there too once a month (IIRC) - you should be running great games of Gateway there!

As for the tricky question of membership - a qualified yes. Membership is the subject of a long post I've written but not posted yet, and is something we're changing considerably. There isn't any formal membership - instead it's all about con attendance and having a presence on the stall. If you're prepared to put the work in, post on the site, come to conventions to demo everyone's games and help out the Collective, then there's no reason you (or anyone, whilst I'm on the subject) can't have books for sale on the stall. But, like I said, I have a more expansive post on the subject that I should probably put up.

Hope some of that helps. I'm sure other people wiser than I will have comments too.

Gregor - I'm not sure if I agree with reviewing one another's books. I trust everyone to be genuine and honest, but I wonder if there's the risk it might look like a mutual backslapping exercise to outsiders.

Ben

If you are prepared to take a punt, email me a copy to neil [at] neilcford [dot] com and if I like it, I'll run sessions at the Portsmouth Guild of Roleplayers, my local Starbucks (rpgs every Sunday!) and The Gamers Guild in Redhill. If you have a sample / demo scenario, even better.

If I don't like it, I'll tell you why.

For promotion, definitely go and post something over at UK Roleplayers - http://www.ukroleplayers.com. Also consider going to IndieCon in November - http://www.indiecon.net/ and definitely try and make it to Dragonmeet - http://www.dragonmeet.co.uk

- Neil.

Games Co-ordinator
Dragonmeet 2008

"There is no place for Messiah here - it`s only hobby" - Deckard @ The Burning Wheel Forums

First off, hi Ben and welcome to CE. My answers to your questions would be...

1. Convention presence is valuable but it has to be structured and considered. I've had my eyes opened by the shortform demo technique that CE uses and the impact it can make, especially in a balance between effort and time. Selecting the right con is crucial too. Some are very play based, some sales based. Different strategies work in different cons. The one thing I have seen absolutely is that having someone there who can interact with the players, talk to them about the game and give guided enthusiasm can sell a game.

2. There's probably a calculation that can be made to see the sales that would be needed to make up for the lower cut, but if you are seeking to generate a buzz you need to get your product out to market and that would suggest as many routes to market as possible!

3. I would ask, if time isn't an issue, what harm could running games in your FLGS do? If you build a loyal local following, suddenly the new developments in your game line will find multiple voices on the net. I was shocked to find out how many boosters Mob Justice had on my CCG site from the scottish players who had played it in the past.

Any chance we can know a little more about the Gateway product?

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

Thanks everyone for the replies. Andrew you were right - it was definitely worth posting here.

I've already spoken to Dave at Fb3 about the GoPlay sessions and we'll certainly be going there.

As for conventions, we're planning on coming to Dragionmeet this year, and are already committed to Game08 in Manchester. Given how far away Dorset is and that we're already doing two conventions in November, I think IndieCon is probably a bridge too far.

In terms of membership, I'd be happy to be a colective endeavour spokesperson at any convention I attend, although with a family and a fairly intensive RL job my ability to attend many in a year is limited. I'm always happy to run demo games - and I'll run games at Fb3 too on my usual weds evening slot (I just bought 3:16 yesterday as it happens, not knowing Gregor was a member of collective endeavour, and was already thinking about running it there anyway :) ).

What, btw, is the "shortform demo technique" Neil mentions.

Gateway uses something we like to cal "the Drama Resolution system" to structure the development of scenes, allowing you to perform any action you can imagine and then describe its effects on the other characters, objects or whatever around you in game-specific terms. It's a kind of blend of narrativist and gamist philosophies, allowing both the freedom to play the tactics of the game, whilst providing the freedom to be inventive and narrate the action of the scene.

I'd be happy to send interested parties who are members of collective endeavour copies of Gateway for comment, etc.

Expect some actual play threads posted around and about shortly :)

Cheerio, and thanks again,

Ben

Newt I'm sure will make you very welcome.

I'm sure I might be able to persuade someone to run a game or two for you at IndieCon. I just need to remember where I put my cattle prod :)

See my comment further up ;)

- Neil.

Games Co-ordinator
Dragonmeet 2008

"There is no place for Messiah here - it`s only hobby" - Deckard @ The Burning Wheel Forums

He wasn't at Leeds uni in the mid-late 90s was he? I remember a member of the gaming club called Newt, and I believe he is now Manchester-based.

:) Check your email. I sent you coupons for free downloads shortly after I posted my last message.

Cheerio,

Ben

1. Yes, conventions are good. Run games for people and they'll talk about your game.

2. I've heard that multiple sites target slightly different markets, which is useful.

3. We haven't done much of this, I think. Try it and tell us how it goes.

4. Yes. It is hard to define exactly what you'd have to do: it's a process of collaborating with us and getting involved with other people's games. Having a pint with us is always a good move.

5. I didn't see much of a boost when Play Unsafe was reviewed on RPG.NET, perhaps because it was priced too high for that market at the time. Later, when someone started a thread about the book on RPG.NET, I sold about 40 PDFs.

Graham

Just checked and nothing appears to have come through :( Made sure it hadn't gone in to the spam or trash too.

- Neil.

Games Co-ordinator
Dragonmeet 2008

"There is no place for Messiah here - it`s only hobby" - Deckard @ The Burning Wheel Forums

Ben - the "short-form game technique" is commonly referred to in simpler terms as a "15 minute demo." Unsurprisingly, it does exactly what it sounds - demos the game in 15 minutes. At busy conventions there's a lot of takeup from people who have 15 minutes to try a game out that wouldn't be interested in the more common 4 hour demo game. Have a look around in the demo forum elsewhere on the site for plenty of discussion about them.

I'm starting another thread about Gateway in general so I don't derail this one.